MSSA means what exactly?

Recently #ShoutCentral took it upon itself to once again try and address the various views concerning the MSSA (That’s Mind Sports South Africa). They hosted a TeamSpeak interview with the President of the MSSA, Colin Webster, where various community members were also allowed a chance to raise a question to Colin. The interview was informative and long, with continued discussions for another 2 hours afterwards.

What follows here is an additional interview with Colin Webster, MSSA President, and Ryan van den Bergh, eGaming Board of Control chairman. Since the interview is rather lengthy you will find that topics are separated roughly, for easier reading.

Here follows a list of the topics covered, in order:
1. The MSSA has landed – SAWU – MSSA includes egaming? – To whom does the MSSA report?
2. What is leading to the bad image of the MSSA?
3. Doesn’t the MSSA’s constitution requirements for its members = slavery?
4. What is the MSSA’s plan to handle its image within the egaming community?
5. How does eGaming fit in with wargaming and boardgaming? Are they truly connected?
6. A clan is not a club. Is the level of formality (red tape) in the MSSA realistic?
7. How does the MSSA restrict international gaming?
8. Which part of the MSSA really gains from my registration fee?
9. The eGaming Board of Control
10. Does the MSSA recommend or choose the national teams?
11. The MSSA’s plan for 2009/2010 and the LAN Championships
12. The legal environment for gaming in South Africa
13. School sport involvement and the MSSA
14. MSSA websites to be revamped
15. Contact details for Colin Webster and Ryan van den Bergh

Interviewer

[Flipi ‘alcardu’ Portman]

Interviewees:

[Colin Webster] and [Ryan van den Bergh]

Note: The questions asked here are only meant to help inform. At no point do I wish to convince anyone of anything, but rather that you use your own head and do further investigation where you think necessary. -Flipi

Note: I’ve colour coded the interview for easier reading -Tody

Below are links to 2 graphic representations of the MSSA’s internal relationships between its sections/committees along with detailed explanations:

MSSA Rules&Regulations Structure.jpg
MSSA Rules&Regulations Explanation.pdf [Hosted off-site]
MSSA Organisation.jpg
MSSA Organisation Explanation.pdf [Hosted off-site]

1.

Flipi says: To start I think we should get a bit of background information about the MSSA. When was the MSSA established?
Colin Webster says: The MSSA was founded in 1984. However, it was not until 1990 that the MSSA became a member of NOCSA in 1990, and in 1991 that the MSSA became affiliated to the Confederation of South African Sports Confederation (COSAS). Upon dissolution of the NSC in 1999, the MSSA played its part in supporting the formation of the South African Sports Commission in 1999. Once the South African Sports Commission was formed (by Act of Parliament) the MSSA again was accepted as a full member. Upon dissolution of the SA Sports Commission, the MSSA became a founding member of the South African Sports Confederation and Olympic Committee (SASCOC). As the recognised National Federation for eSports, the MSSA is the sole authority for eSports in South Africa in terms of the Sports and Recreation Act (as amended). As a member of SASCOC, all the games promoted by Mind Sports South Africa are accredited as national sports. Please note that the MSSA changed its name in 2005 from the South African Wargames Union (SAWU) to that of Mind Sports South Africa.

Flipi says: And when did the MSSA become the appointed body to govern egaming along with wargaming and boardgaming?
Colin Webster says: Please note that computer gaming was always included in the MSSA’s constitution.

Flipi says: Was it part of SAWU’s constitution?
Colin Webster says: Yes

Flipi says: I see. So, as the appointed body to govern these disciplines, does the MSSA have to ‘renew’ its position? And to whom does the MSSA report to on a yearly basis?
Colin Webster says: As a federation, it does not need to ‘renew’ its position as such recognition depends on the position afforded to the MSSA by the Sport and Recreation Act (as amended). The MSSA has to report back to; 1. Its members, 2. the department of Sport, 3. SASCOC and, occasionally, 4. the PMG (Parliamentary Monitoring Group) for Sport and Recreation. Please note that members are the clubs and associations that are affiliated to the MSSA. Individuals cannot be members of the MSSA.

Flipi says: Are the MSSA’s yearly financial statements available? If so could you please furnish me with them?
Colin Webster says: As far as the financials are concerned I only have them on hard copy, I will have them scanned for you. In the meantime, as far as our income streams are concerned, we receive the following types of income: Registration fees, affiliation fees, entrance fees, sponsorships, and sometimes government subsidies. The MSSA is an Association not for gain. The MSSA certainly does not have a lot of money. Whatever comes in goes out again for gaming. What may interest you, and your readers, is that the MSSA is driven entirely by volunteers. No one receives a salary of any sort. In fact office-bearers of an Association not for gain may not take salaries, etc.
Flipi says: No bonuses, salaries, payouts or benefits whatsoever?
Colin Webster says: None
Ryan van den Bergh says: We are all volunteers. No pay.
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2.

Flipi says: I come from a part of the egaming community of SA which dislikes, and sometimes openly hates, the MSSA. Be it for fictional or factual reasons. Where do you think the MSSA ‘went wrong’ to give lead to this resentment? Or do you feel that the MSSA never went wrong, but if so then where would you say it all came from?
Colin Webster says: This is a difficult question, and one that I have put a lot of thought into.
Flipi says: I know it’s a difficult one >< but no one seems to have asked you your thoughts on it… and I’m amazed that they haven’t.
Ryan van den Bergh says: I think that there are a number of factors that have lead to the current situation.
Colin Webster says: The biggest problem seems to be misinformation by certain individuals who see the MSSA as a threat because the MSSA is doing things differently, and, because, I believe, they see the MSSA as limiting their own profit making ventures in eSports.
Ryan van den Bergh says: ye I would agree with that Colin. That’s a big one

Flipi says: what would the other factors be?
Ryan van den Bergh says: Well, I think that gamers have never seen any organisation quite like the MSSA. We are a non-profit organisation designed to look after gamers’ needs. They are used to people who take their cash and then break promises. They think MSSA is like a ‘big brother’ instead of an organisation that is formed from gamers and for gamers.

Flipi says: A big brother?
Ryan van den Bergh says: Well a sort of government organisation or parent that is dictating to them.
Colin Webster says: I would say that what I’ve stated above is the most important, as most of the vitriolic responses apropos the MSSA have always come from relatively few gamers – look how quiet the forums have become! What players seem to fail to realise is that the MSSA is all inclusive.

Flipi says: All inclusive?
Ryan van den Bergh says: MSSA is like human body and the organs are the clubs and players. The organs govern how the body works and functions.
Colin Webster says: The MSSA cannot turn away any members as long as their constitutions comply with that of the MSSA. As you know, our biggest critic is without doubt Mr. Vic Soldo. However, if he started a club and it, met with all requirements, his club would be able to affiliate, and he could stand for ANY position.
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3.

Flipi says: I have seen one of those constitutions though, and if I remember a few of the lines looked very much like shackles to me. It sounded like in the end the MSSA would be able to dictate everything in such a member, based on the constitution.
Ryan van den Bergh says: remember what I said earlier Flipi, MSSA is a body and the clubs are the organs. More specifically MSSA is a democracy.
Colin Webster says: Remember, that the MSSA undertakes to respect every member’s autonomy. “From the MSSA Constitution: 36. RECOGNITION OF AUTONOMY: The UNION undertakes to respect and recognise the autonomy of every member and institution to an exclusive jurisdiction over its own internal matters provided that the
member shall function throughout in accordance with the spirit of the objectives of the UNION.” Therefore, if the MSSA made a decision that did affect the internal workings of a member, such decision would be ultra vires and not enforceable. [Ultra vires = Unenforceable, of no strength]

Flipi says: So are you saying a club would be giving up power but still retaining it through its right to vote and elect members of committees/boards?
Ryan van den Bergh says: Interesting way of putting it, I wouldn’t say they give up anything. Every club governs itself. But when it comes to decisions of national importance then they communicate with one another through MSSA and their votes.
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4.

Flipi says: Coming back to the resentment I spoke of. Do you have any plans of action to ‘combat’ it so to speak?
Ryan van den Bergh says: Flipi I have been with MSSA for quite a while. I am extremely aware of the ‘resentment’ that you speak of and as a result I have spent (as has Colin and several other very high ranking MSSA officials) considerable periods of time working out why we are here and how to combat this problem. What seems to have worked well thus far, at least in certain circles, is to simply be patient and prove ourselves to our critics. To give you an idea of the scope and non-monolithic structure of the MSSA you can look at us, we are not connected to a single member club in MSSA:

Ryan = Wits Wargames Club (Wits University)
Colin = Old Edwardians Society

Flipi says: What is the Old Edwardians Society?
Colin Webster says: Old Eds is the KES old boys club. King Edward VII High School. : KES: (Facebook link: here)
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5.

Flipi says: Now, I am slightly familiar with the eSports section of the MSSA, but what about the Wargaming and Boardgaming members: are they ‘as an MSSA section’ aware of the situation from the egaming side? Has there been internal discussion concerning their opinion of it maybe?
Colin Webster says: Yes, all committee members are aware.
Ryan van den Bergh says: MSSA’s Management Board contains members from all three disciplines. So yes they are aware. Are they going to interfere, as some people in eSports believe? No to be honest I don’t think they really care. The disciplines tend to stick to their own business.

Flipi says: This begs a question I had during the other night’s discussion. eGamers don’t have an interest in governing boardgaming/wargaming, and similarly you agree they probably don’t have an interest in governing eGamers. Does this not show on a base flaw in the MSSA’s reach? That it groups different worlds too closely?
Colin Webster says: They are not different worlds. There is a great deal of cross-pollination among all gamers. Even at OC, Mayhem, Fraglan, etc, you see the LAN’s catering for card games, Warhammer, etc.

Flipi says: do you feel they share similar worlds in that they are similarly structured disciplines? Is it not similar to saying rugby and swimming are grouped?
Colin Webster says: No, but swimming is grouped with water polo, synchronised swimming and diving. The games that we cater for are definitely grouped. eSports is really just a more techno savvy way of playing the ‘older’ wargames and board games
Ryan van den Bergh says: Flipi, correct me if I’m wrong, but your real question is: Why is a War/Board Gaming imposing their values on eSports? They are completely different and they will change how we work.

Flipi says: yes Ryan that’s a very direct way of saying it.
Ryan van den Bergh says: look, when we get down to it. Have a look at SA Rugby, Cricket, etc. You need people who understand the crappy admin world. But my point is: the Boards of Control (who consist of reps from every club) are usually the gamers. The Management Board deals with general issues that are the same for all 3 disciplines. And can be elected by anyone so when you view the MSSA organisation from a Macro perspective, it makes perfect logical sense to have all 3 together. All need colours, finances, sponsorship and a club structure. But when we get down to eSports, we separate it based on the clubs that get involved.

Flipi says: Right now, August 09, what is the head count of the MSSA? And how is it spread out between the 3 sections?
Colin Webster says: At the moment, there are 15 eSports clubs, 10 wargames clubs and 12 board games clubs. Roughly speaking in terms of gamers (and I stand here open to correction as this is not my portfolio), the clubs represent about 40000 players in board games, just shy of 500 in figure games and about 1000 in eSports. However, some of the clubs never vote.
Flipi says: 40 thousand is a big number ><
Colin Webster says: yes, but it is also why we do not have a problem with the government.
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6.

Flipi says: Now something very close to my heart. The MSSA refers to a member as a club, in gaming terms this would be a clan. MaxXx during his discussion swapped to and fro a lot, saying u can take it either way, but I do not agree at all. In the MSSA, a club as a committee, with certain required positions to be filled. I have here the SGA’s constitution [Stellenbosch Gaming Society]. Just to refresh myself again. To be frank, clans don’t work this way. Clans don’t function at this level of formality.
Colin Webster says: A clan can constitutionalise itself to become a club. Or a clan can work with other clans to be in the same club

Flipi says: yes but u have requirements for that constitution do u not?
Colin Webster says: Included in the pack I sent you is a proforma constitution (that even OGA) used. The legal requirements for any Association not for gain are that there must be plurality of membership.Therefore it can be as low as three with no maximum number.

Flipi says: But do you expect clans, sometimes formed by minors aged 14-16, to conform to this level of formality? To hold AGM’s and structured internal channels. How do you expect them to do this?
Colin Webster says: That is why we are pushing into schools. To have school clubs with many different clans. Just to give you an idea, Pretoria Boys has a club of over 120 players.
Ryan van den Bergh says: We have a number of school clubs which are growing almost weekly. The teachers manage those clubs very well. When it comes to more junior clubs, schools are very good. Occasionally we have those joining bigger clubs, e.g. Club Xploit. Part of the experience of joining a ‘formal’ club is to teach the guys how things work. It’s a learning experience. You learn far more than just gaming.
Colin Webster says: Not only that, but because clubs are legal entities, sponsors are more willing to sponsor.

Flipi says: Concerning this formality, are there any options open to you to lower it? <for the clans without a teacher or own experience> Are you functioning at the lowest level already? Also, would you say you are also providing school goers a chance to grow and learn about the workings of the world out there, apart from gaming?
Ryan van den Bergh says: the first part, I will leave to Colin. In terms of the second: yes, you learn a lot of life skills in a formal environment like MSSA. You go to provincial and national comps. You have the opportunity to get colours. You can meet very influential people in sport. You also learn about things that are not so obvious how meetings work (agendas, minutes, etc). How to deal with inter-personal conflict with other club members, Public Relations, Sponsorship. It is an opportunity, never mind what happens if you become a Protea.
Colin Webster says: Yes, the MSSA is exploring a temporary registered player status that will allow greater participation. However there are pitfalls with such a status as it will come without voting rights etc. Don’t forget that the age of majority in SA is now 18, so, any 18 year olds may legally run clubs.

At this point we stopped and decided to reconvene later that evening after work…
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7.

Flipi says: If my gaming team gained entry to an offline final overseas after competing online, and wished to attend, would the MSSA try to restrict our attendance if we are not members?
Colin Webster says: This is an interesting question. In terms of the regulations for all sport, all teams going across have to have permission from the relevant federation and from SASCOC. If a team does not have such permission, the state will take action, especially if the team in any way passes itself off to be a South African team. That’s not the MSSA’s rules, but the states. In fact the penalties that can be imposed by the state are quite severe, for example, and I quote:

“Offences
31. An athlete, person, member or organization is guilty of an offence and liable on conviction as to a fine or to imprisonment for a period not exceeding 10 years or to both such fine and imprisonment, if that athlete, person, member or organization, where applicable-
(a) without the necessary authority in writing and entering into an agreement with SRSA as contemplated in regulation 29(1), uses the national colours for commercial purposes;
(b) is awarded national colours without complying to the terms and conditions and fees or royalties and arrangements contemplated in regulation 30(2);
(c) use the national colours or any colours confusingly or deceptively similar thereto in the course of trade or otherwise;
(d) project himself or herself or itself as representing South Africa in an official capacity in a sporting activity without the written consent from the Sports Confederation or SRSA;
(e) unlawfully and without the written authority of the Board, misrepresent that he or she is entitled to wear national colours;
(f) commit any act, directly or indirectly, which brings the national colours into disrepute; and
(g) contravene any of the provisions of these Regulations.”

So, by a player being a member of the MSSA, as long as the player is committed to development of the
game (and development can take many forms) the player is almost guaranteed of MSSA support for
playing overseas.

Flipi says: But most world wide competitions are not focused on ‘continental competition’, they are just events hosted that can be entered into by eligible as required. If I were to go overseas alone to play war3, after gaining entry on my own through online competitions where nationality plays no role, why should I be subject to these rules? Many schools have e.g. rugby teams going overseas to compete against teams in other countries. And if I’m looking at that list correctly, it seems that teams who are going over to compete while representing themselves shouldn’t be liable?
Colin Webster says: All those school rugby teams follow the same procedure as laid out. As soon as a South African flag is posted next to their name, they could be in serious trouble. What the MSSA is trying to do is enable, not stop.

Flipi says: Hypothetical: if I was a great war3 player and I was competing against another big name from say Sweden. The press, being what it is, is guaranteed to make a big deal of where I come from. Even if I never mention it once.
Colin Webster says: Exactly
Flipi says: Why should I be restricted by this?
Colin Webster says: What you must understand that the actions of a few have spoilt it for everybody in that a sporting code ignored the political realities of the day…So the Regulations were introduced, last year, to enforce compliance among all sports. So that government priorities would be achieved.
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8.

Flipi says: Hypothetical: If a 100 egamers <under X amount of members> joined up with MSSA today, and paid their registration fees. Does this money form part of the total funds in the MSSA, or is each section separate. And if it is part of the total, how are funds spread? What is the rule of thumb the MSSA uses when it budgets its funds?
Colin Webster says: In November, each Board of Control sets its own budget. Not an easy task as you can guess as nothing in this world is a certainty. All the funds go into a central account, but accounts are kept to ensure that proper expenditure takes place. Of course, if sponsorship is obtained for any one discipline (e.g. eSports, board games, and wargames) the sponsorship can only be spent on the discipline as specified in the sponsorship agreement. Hence Incredible Connection sponsors eSports, while TEBA Bank sponsors Morabaraba.
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9.

Flipi says: Currently, how big is the egaming Board of Control (BoC)? And how many active gamers are on it?
Colin Webster says: The Board consists of the Chairman, four members elected for one year terms, and players nominated by their clubs. At the moment the clubs that actively participate are the Lair, ESWAT, Wits, and Knights. The current BoC consists of the following individuals:

• Ryan van den Bergh – BoC Chairman
• Pieter Venter – Club Xploit Representative
• Clinton Smythe – Wits Wargames Club Representative
• Garth Schoeman – Knights Mindsports Club Representative
• Fernando Vermeulen – ESWAT Club Representative
• Bryan Banfield – The Lair Representative
• Stephen White – Knights Mindsports Club (observer at Chairman’s invite)
• Sean Grobler – Knights Mindsports Club (observer at Chairman’s invite)
• David Vannucci – Vice-President in charge of Umpiring (ex officio)
• Lloyd Clark – Vice-President in charge of Development (ex officio)
• Richard Ligault – General Secretary (ex officio)
• Colin Webster – President (ex officio)

NOTE: Observers and ex officio have no voting rights on the BoC.

Please remember that to be elected on the eSports BoC you have to be an eSports player. We specifically prohibit players being voted on if they play other disciplines. If you are voted on and miss three consecutive meetings you are removed, but the MSSA has no power to remove a club representative.

Flipi says: To whom does the BoC answer to?
Colin Webster says: First it answers to the membership. If the membership is not happy, none of the board will be returned at election time.

Flipi says: Do decisions made at the BoC level flow upwards for approval or ratification at any time?
Colin Webster says: The Management Board just checks to ensure that decisions are constitutional. The Management Board does not have the power to over turn any of the decisions so made. However, that being said, the Executive and Council can, but neither body will go through every decision. Both committees will only consider motions made, so it’s a bit like having an upper house to which you can appeal if you feel that a decision hasn’t been properly thought through.
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10.

Flipi says: You mentioned this earlier but I’m not sure what the fact is, does the MSSA choose the final national teams for eSports?
Colin Webster says: Yes. Last year we chose a team for DoTA and gave them Protea Colours. The team largely consisted of players from Bvd (all but one). I think that they only realised that it was the real thing when they were introduced to the CEO of SASCOC and went for their fitting at the official suppliers….
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11.

Flipi says: now moving forward once more, future! Can you give me a practical hands on physical to be expected answer, what is MSSA aiming for in the short term? <Read 2010> And also, is there anything we can look forward to in the rest of 2009?
Colin Webster says: For 2009 there is quite a lot. Egypt, the host for the 2009 African Continentals unfortunately bailed out due to costs, so, we are trying to save that. If we can save it, it does mean that there will be other African teams present, so the MSSA will be able to arrange test matches and award Protea Colours. Also the MSSA is encouraging the growth of the game in Africa, we only need one more state to have a Federation to get eSports included in the African Games (five countries are needed). The reason to get into the All African Games is that it is the first step to get eSports into other traditional games, such as the Commonwealth Games, the World Games, etc.

Flipi says: How many people registered for LAN championships and which top names will be there?
Colin Webster says: Oh, for Nationals next week, I was told today by the Umpire that we have a fairly good entry. To help reduce confusion – refer to the event as ‘MSSA Nationals’. Apparently there are ten COD 4 teams and twelve DoTA teams entered. I am not sure of the rest, but considering everything that has happened this year, that is a good tournament. The registered entries for the ’09 MSSA Nationals are as follows:

DotA

Team Name	From Where	Club
.c.D.c.	Benoni High School	Knights
Chronic Assault	Hendrik Verwoerd High School	Knights
80s	Northcliff High School	Pr0NHS
DUCoRe	University of Johannesburg	Knights
Hi5	University of Johannesburg/ Wits University	Knights/Wits
T.K.Slayers	The King’s School Robbin Hills	Knights
SS	NorthCliff high School	Pr0NHS
XploIT	XploIT	Xploit
YcD	Benoni High School	Knights
Pr0NHS 1	Northcliff High School	Pr0NHS
Pr0NHS 2	Northcliff High School	Pr0NHS

CoD4

Team Name	From Where	Club
C.O.R.3	Hoërskool Brandwag	Knights
.c.D.c.	Benoni High School	Knights
T.K.Slayers	The King’s School Robbin Hills	Knights
Implicit	Northcliff High	Knights
SS	NorthCliff high School	Pr0NHS
Pr0NHS 1	Northcliff High School	Pr0NHS
Pr0NHS 2	Northcliff High School	Pr0NHS
ESWAT	ESWAT	ESWAT
EGHS	Edenglen High School	Knights
SJC	St John’s College	Gamers Club

CS 1.6

Team Name	From Where	Club
Bravado		Bravado
.c.D.c.	Benoni High School	Knights
Pr0NHS	Northcliff High School	Pr0NHS
EGHS	Edenglen High School	Knights

Head-on Games

Game	Number of entrants
FIFA’09	11
Q3	15
TMNF	5
GH	7
Starcraft	3

About 2010, again there is a lot. The provincial LAN Championships will be rolled out into more provinces. So there will be LAN championships in North West, Gauteng, Western Cape, KwaZulu Natal and Eastern Cape. That way more gamers will be able to qualify for National Team Trials and be given a fair shot at representing the country.
Also, the MSSA is in talks about holding a spectacular signature event which will definitely boost the image of gamers.

Flipi says: Is there no more information available regarding this event?
Colin Webster says: You’ll be the first to know when the MSSA breaks the news.
Flipi says: Well I’d like to thank you for your time Colin, and you Ryan, both for earlier today and tonight. Is there anything you want to add from your side?
Colin Webster says: Thank you as well Flipi. I can’t think of anything right now, but let’s keep the communication lines open…
Ryan van den Bergh says: Yes thanx Flipi. There are two issues here and I’ll discuss them briefly:
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12.

Legal Issues surrounding gaming in South Africa: As you know, MSSA is the National Federation for eSports and as such we have to abide by the law in whatever we do. Unfortunately the current gaming culture in South Africa is intricately intertwined with numerous illegal activities, e.g. piracy, sleeping at LANs, illegal online servers, etc. As a gamer, I understand the culture at LANs/Online very well and I realise that gamers either don’t care or don’t see what they are doing as wrong or they feel that we are being anal. The result is that MSSA cannot get involved in any form of illegal activity. This means that, for example, at any MSSA LAN Championship there will be no piracy whatsoever, there will be no sleeping over at the venue and all players must be able to provide umpires with evidence that they own the Computer Game they are playing. It may make us a bit unpopular, but it is the law.
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13.

How SA School Sports are getting involved: Earlier this year the Department of Education and the Departments of Sports and Recreation came to an agreement that all sports in all schools countrywide would now fall under the jurisdiction of the National Sports Federations. This is great news as it means that all the Schools in South Africa have the chance to start competing against one another in eSports. An example of this is MSSA’s National Championships (being held next weekend) where a large percentage of the participants are from Schools in Gauteng and the event is being held at Northcliff High School. If the school teams do well, they can get colours from MSSA and their schools, thereby increasing their chances of getting bursaries for University (either from companies or for playing eSports at University).
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14.

MSSA websites to be revamped.
Ryan van den Bergh says: As a final note, I think it important to also inform players we are working on a new website. We have created a detailed design which should streamline all of MSSA’s processes. The main MSSA site (link: here) and the CGBoC site (link: here), will both be scrapped and redone into a single MSSA website. Unfortunately this is still a work in progress with no deadline, but we want the players to know their voices don’t fall on deaf ears.
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15.

Contact information for C Webster and R van den Bergh.

Flipi says: I have been asked to mention that further queries and discussion are very welcome and, in fact, wanted. Here follows the email and Skype name of each:

Colin Webster
Email: wargames@iafrica.com
Skype: colin.webster4

Ryan van den Bergh
Email: r.vandenbergh@ee.wits.ac.za
Skype: ryan.van.den.bergh