You Bitch At Piracy, But What About Those Who Sell Beta Keys

Tbh would give it to someone who needs it (car, keep the tv because fuck watching tv, PS3)

If its a friend I would actually give it for free, didnt cost me anything won it by luck of the draw. 
If its just someone I know I would probably sell it for yeah a greatly reduced price.

 @kluch:disqus – I get the concepts and idea he put forward. It’s just a drastic way of proving a point :p

 Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that I don’t think it’s a dick move, but that’s also human nature. If someone needs to or is greedy enough to (or is simply enterprising enough) to enter each and every single free sweepstakes they can, regardless of whether it’s for promotion purposes that they don’t give a shit about, the point is that at the end of the day they’re going to make money from someone else’s good-will or purely because they were lucky.

If I had to get a Diablo 3 beta key in the beta program, I would have sold it at the drop of a hat. Not because I’m an unethical person, but because it’s a random chance that I could get one, and I didn’t anyway.

I entered a photography competition last year. There were five categories – each one would have five finalists chosen based on likes on facebook for the users’ photos and votes at the free to attend Expo in Johannesburg.

You know what happened? In all but one category, the worst possible photos made it to the finalists. Only one photo in that remaining category was worth anything to *anyone*, regardless of how poor your understanding of technical requirements for photography, your artistic vision or your creative vision are, those other 24 photos were complete and utter shit.

But they got there because people got their friends and family, and their friends’ friends and family, and their family’s friends and family, to vote for their photos.

They had friends attend the expos to vote on their photos there, too.

The prize for every category, first place, was a Canon 5D Mk II with EF 24-105mm f/4L IS USM. At the time this kit was worth R28.5k. One voter, whether at the expo or on facebook, got a 60D with some lens, still worth around R15k at the time.

I know my entries wouldn’t have won in the competition to begin with when I saw some of the entries that came in towards the end, but that didn’t change the fact that those terrible photos still got to the finalists for no other reason than that people were greedy enough to go out of their way to ensure they got in the top 5.

I’m signed up for another photography competition right now, as it happens. This time the company running it has explicitly stated that any indications of unethical vote garnering to get onto the top10 list (finalists, of which a winner is chosen by a closed panel of judges, apparently) would be disqualified. They don’t explain to the letter what they consider unethical, though they do indicate that vote spamming and vote exchange sites (yeah, these exist…) will be automatic grounds for disqualification.

I reckon I actually stand a chance this time, but there’s already one other entry that nobody that I’ve approached with the list of photos likes in the least, that is or was in the lead for votes – I didn’t even ask them to remark on the photos in general, they out of their own said “why the fuck does this one have 42 votes? It’s terrible…”

But you can be sure that guy’s probably going to be on the top10 for votes at the end of the day.

And you can also bet that there’s a good chance that a bunch of the people signed up for that competition are staring at the value of the camera and lens with the intention of reselling it, not keeping and using it.

Personally I’d be asking the store running the competition if I couldn’t pay the difference to upgrade it to a different body that I would prefer to own with the intention of using it vs the prize on offer, should I happen to win.

You’ll remember some time ago when you guys ran a competition for console versions of a game I’d remarked that I wouldn’t be entering because I’d have no use for it – self-centered egomaniac that I am, I’m ‘proud’ that despite the fact I don’t have of an income to boast about nor a lengthy, impressive list of worldly possessions, I don’t feel the need nor desire to undermine others’ attempts to win things at no expense to themselves, whether they intend on reselling it or not. Sucks for me that there are a million and one opportunities I miss in the process while there are little fagknuckles that will try and win things purely to profit from them, but I prefer keeping to the ‘moral high ground’, so to speak.

Also, you meant ‘condemn’. ‘Condone’ is the positive one :P

 @TheoLubbe:disqus That’s why “vote for friends” and stuff competitions are generally crappy. It should be every man for himself.

If you need help with competitions, use our Facebook page. We have lots of fans too :-)

I wish you best of luck in the competitions — and I don’t at all disagree with you that people do often sell the stuff that they win. Sometimes they keep it for good use and others because they are status kiddies.

Lol, thanks for the correction. To be honest, I don’t remember typing any word with a ‘c’. :P

What I’m getting at here, is, free beta keys have the intention to be shared amongst the community to make the game better and more accessible to groups of friends, etc. To have fun and to be played. Valve has this ideology and we all appreciate it.

We expect to pay for cameras, regardless if it was obtained for free or not in a competition. That’s what I am getting it:

The intention of Valve is never to have the keys sold, but shared. The camera company’s intention is to have it sold, and they don’t care. Furthermore, you will never ever know if I got the camera for free or if I bought it — if I sell it to you, so that’s fine. We don’t know each other.

Sell me a Dota 2 beta key — and I’ll know that it’s free. Because, after all, they are free.

Thanks for taking the time to comment though. I hope you understand what I am getting at with this. There’s a fine-line between your points and mine, and I am maintaining the stance that it is free by the publisher with the intention to share for free. Other products, not so much. :-)

PS. to get at your Disqus threading issues. I’ve set threads to three max purely because anything larger than three starts to indent too much. Basically comments will be an inch wide and 100m long. Tough and annoying to read. The best way to counter this and still get the attention of the person is to do what I do and just reply to the one above and go “@”name – this generally helps. It’s for looks and it’s easier to read. Not always simple, but that’s the price I pay for things looking somewhat pretty. Kill me if you like :P

@TheoLubbe:disqus – Just one way to get around the problem. It’s kind of effective, not so simple. I like it though :-)

 I think that as the game grows and more players are playing, the amount of competition keys get fewer and those entering get larger. Now, I’m not generally a lucky person when it comes to “random” draws. My luck goes as far as winning a Mass Effect collectors edition only to not win it because I wasn’t ticked off on a list, even though I was present. So, I’m really not. I win competitions when there’s a question which needs answering and I know the answer and can be the first to do so (in real life competitions).

So, being someone really unlucky, in general, I never ever win keys. Unless I’m first and no one knows about it.

Therefore I’d also be a sucker waiting. And, I’m not one to buy a beta key either. I have strong values against this — as you can see. :-)

As for people not buying: let’s say that this does in fact happen. No one buys. Those that are selling are doing it for a profit and they don’t actually care one bit about the community and those who want to buy — therefore to be spiteful they don’t give them away. And say now they continue to be spiteful and accumulate keys.. Then there’s less keys for players and no one selling because no one is buying, etc.

It goes both ways. And when people lose out on money — they will and often do get very sour and lame. :-(

It’s a huge problem, and I think my main problem with all of this is that it hurts the community and the developer/publisher — which is damage x2. Piracy only hurts the developer. And that’s what I am trying to actually get at. That it’s way worse.

I believe that even if you argue that it doesn’t hurt the developers, hurting the community by cheating them out of games like this is far worse than hurting an already rich developer. If anything they can take knocks because they are price-scumbags, well most of them. They will ALWAYS make their money back somehow.

Hurt the community and you deserve to get lynched. I see it as far worse than hurting anything else. This is one of the first things to actually hurt the community.

Of all the Betas I have been in: PlayStation Home, Warhawk , Uncharted 2 & 3, Killzone 3, MAG, DC Universe Online, and many more…

The only ones that were a lottery were the Closed Betas.  Generally I didn’t get to sign up for them, someone put my name into a hat.  That accounts for like 2-3 betas I have been in.  Most give people keys in the order they receive requests.  So if you wait 2 weeks to sign up for a beta than you are going to waiting longer than the people that signed up the day the beta sign up was available.

No one is cheating anyone out of games man.  You have an over entitled sense of self and what you think you deserve.  Get your head out of your own ass, you sound like a fool.

Thanks for the reply. The effort is great.

Like you know pirates who just steal, I know those who actually give back. What’s the difference though? There’s two type of pirates, at least: 1) those that steal for the sake of having everything 2) those that take what they need and actually use it. Those that take and use are the ones who actually buy the games that are worth while. It doesn’t mean the original theft of the unworthy games is right, it’s just a point. Your friend seems to be the one that steals for the sake of having everything. If he has everything, please enlighten me with where he gets the time to actually watch and play all those games/movies. And if he doesn’t work or do anything, that’s probably why he pirates: because he can’t seem to afford it?

The point of the article wasn’t to be nit-picky on these smaller explanations. I get what you’re saying, and point noted. People don’t have the right to be entertained but, ethically we should be. The entire point of the article isn’t to weigh-up piracy vs selling beta keys, rather the ethics involved in selling what’s free. Piracy is way worse and it cannot be compared: ethically, I feel one shouldn’t sell the beta key. Piracy is an issue no doubt, but so is the price of games. Games which are no where near as good as others are charged the same price. I have a problem with that, and that’s the point I was knocking at. Where I live, in South Africa, we have consumer acts which try to limit this sort of abuse to the consumer. It stops unethical practices and the abuse from larger corporations. We’re trying.

Unauthorized retail channel. It’s similar to piracy as some people are getting the game without paying the publisher, don’t you think? But that’s a topic for another day. Let’s talk about this later.

Logically I feel that those who use secondhand sales to get cash back for games aren’t doing anything wrong. It feels quite logical to do it and to utilise the market. Some prices aren’t justified and this helps that. Let’s be honest, if the secondhand market wasn’t there wouldn’t the price of games drop? Probably. They are so high because they are resellable and that’s the provision made. Hence: PC is so cheap and can only be used once. See, logically.

It’s a shitty economy? It’s shitty because of America’s oh-so ethical bank practices. There’s no guidelines to how finances need to be dealt with and large corporations are money hungry and do as they please, banks etc. Don’t believe me? Oh, wait, look at what happened in America. Again, in my country, we’ve implemented various Acts to stop this and we’re coping, as a third world country. Business ethics, corporate governance. If games were cheaper they’d sell more — tough economy? Let’s make it work for everyone. Economics much? Let’s get those figures back. Second hand market also has relation to economics.. In fact, it’s quite logical. Supply, demand, you know.

Stealing is wrong, I’m glad we agreed there. Issue with profits? Yup, recession remember? We can make it work for everyone, not just the billion dollar profits seen by companies.

Beta keys and selling. Transfer of ownership? Right. Couldn’t this quite easily be seen the same as the second hand market? The intention is not to sell it but yet it’s sold. Secondhand games, intention not to be sold but they are sold. Interesting, it seems quite similar, to me — only in reverse. The game companies own what, the intellectual property on the disc. That basically says, don’t copy and don’t modify. You own the actual disc, as you’re the proper owner with holdership (I can explain to you how holdership and ownership works in relation to Law). If you believe that because you have the beta key that you own it, then if you believe that secondhand game sales are wrong, because whatever, but the beta key situation with selling is right — then I think that you’re confused. It seems to be the same principle, except one is tangible whereas the other is intangible (code). I don’t see how selling a game which is yours is wrong whereas selling a code which is yours is right. They both allow someone to play the game. Following that, however, how can it be remotely fair to say “they are offering a service”? Explain to me WHY we need this service? Keys are readily and freely available — but instead of the freely they’ve now been set at a price. So, instead it’s readily and priced available. Which again seems unethical as it was free for everyone but now people are hogging for their own benefit. Again, I’m saying unethical — not saying worse than piracy. Where are the guidelines and the ethics at? This is why America caused the recession because banks taught everyone how to get a quick buck. By the way, these Beta keys are free for everyone.

You stated that selling what you have ownership of isn’t wrong: that’s secondhand game markets right there.

I agree that betas don’t make profit. And that’s why they have it for free and allow everyone to play for free. It costs them money and do you honestly think that they would want sellers to make money where they are losing? It seems really counter-productive for them to say “yes, we’ll make the loss — you sell our keys” — if anything they want it to be free and available to everyone so that they can maximise the amount of players and make sure that the money they are losing is actually worth every cent. This is exactly what I am getting at. They are losing money whereas others are gaining from their losses and it is seeing as “fine”. It’s not fine, it’s horrible unfair. It’s screwing up the whole system. If it was meant to make money, the keys – if the keys were meant to make money – they would sell it themselves. It’s unethical for people to sell and make money where the developers who are trying their best to better a game are making a loss. They are doing it for us. These guys selling are attacking us as a consumer, the ones who cannot set the prices and the ones who are being shafted with DLC, and weird on-disc packages, online codes, etc. We’re now fighting each other for money because there’s no governance and everyone is learning from the people who sent us into double-dip recessions.

Corporate-beta-enthusiast is a nifty name I made up for those selling keys. They see a business in screwing everyone. :-)

I believe that Valve will find a way to monetize, but at the moment they aren’t and they planning free. Others are making money at their expense and it’s wrong because it hurts us and them, indirectly, in the long run. I believe we went through this in the paragraph above.

We found that the company isn’t making money — so please don’t call me ignorant. You said it too. What the future holds, the future holds. They can change it at anytime. At the rate the game is going now, that’s what my comments are aimed at.

I don’t believe that I’m ignorant, in fact, I believe that you are somewhat confused. You’ve sent numerous mixed messages. You believe in something but not on the flip-side which is exactly the same.

So, I’m not sure what you’re getting at entirely, but this article boils down to ethics and what is happening. It’s not piracy vs this issue — it’s not comparable. I used piracy to note that it’s not the ONLY bad thing going on in the industry, as this is also bad and hurts the consumer and the developer.

I hope I’ve explained some points to you and you understand what I was getting at and what I mean.

I’d like to close off with my ending from the article: Imagine this happened with a bank, or on Wall Street. Investors
taking what should be free shares for the public and selling them — do
you think this would stand? Free shares which the public should benefit from and enjoy. But instead, they must pay to enjoy because someone in a position of ‘power’ is being greedy and can find a way to make extra money. That’s all this is, difference is, if it was more monetary related — the outrage would be crazy.

Very unethical, for investors to do that, don’t you think?

Thanks a lot for the comment though @DarthDiggler:disqus . Sorry that mine is so long.

 (CONTINUED FROM BELOW)

Corporate-beta-enthusiast is a nifty name I made up for those selling keys. They see a business in screwing everyone. :-)

You are a socialist nit whit.  You don’t understand economics.  No one is screwed when someone voluntarily gives up their money in exchange for something (as long as it’s a legitimate sale).

You know who screws people?  Governments they can take you money legally at gun point.  When was the last time Activision busted down your door and asked you for $15 for that latest map pack?

I believe that Valve will find a way to monetize, but at the moment they
aren’t and they planning free. Others are making money at their expense
and it’s wrong because it hurts us and them, indirectly, in the long
run. I believe we went through this in the paragraph above.

Valve can add free things to their service to offer better value to those who are members and attract new members.  So they are already monetizing the free stuff.  Why you didn’t already know this is beyond me, you are the one that is supposed to have the expertise.  Just having a keyboard and a computer doesn’t make you a writer.

We found that the company isn’t making money — so please don’t call
me ignorant. You said it too. What the future holds, the future holds.
They can change it at anytime. At the rate the game is going now, that’s
what my comments are aimed at.

I don’t believe that I’m ignorant, in fact, I believe that you are
somewhat confused. You’ve sent numerous mixed messages. You believe in
something but not on the flip-side which is exactly the same.

We must have a communication problem here, I have went out of my way to explain myself with details.  Selling beta keys doesn’t cause any hard to the marketplace.  It just pisses people off like you. Obviously  you wanted to get into a BETA but didn’t work it out.  You were butt-hurt so you wrote this long-winded diatribe that doesn’t make any points.

So, I’m not sure what you’re getting at entirely, but this article boils
down to ethics and what is happening. It’s not piracy vs this issue —
it’s not comparable. I used piracy to note that it’s not the ONLY bad
thing going on in the industry, as this is also bad and hurts the
consumer and the developer.

There are no ethical issues here though.  BETA keys are not plentiful for a reason.  If one person takes it upon themselves to sell their beta key they are giving someone else an opportunity to play a game early.  Obviously that opportunity has value or there would be no sale.

If BETA keys were plentiful and everyone could get them, I would agree with you, that would take some kind of real asshole to sell they key.  But they are not they are a commodity and to some people they are gold.  I see nothing unethical about collecting a profit for using your time and expertise to create value for someone else.  That is how marketplaces work inequities lead to opportunities.

I’d like to close off with my ending from the article: Imagine this happened with a bank, or on Wall Street. Investors taking what should be free shares for the public and selling them — do you
think this would stand? Free shares which the public should benefit
from and enjoy. But instead, they must pay to enjoy because someone in a
position of ‘power’ is being greedy and can find a way to make extra
money. That’s all this is, difference is, if it was more monetary
related — the outrage would be crazy.

Very unethical, for investors to do that, don’t you think?

Oh so lets take an issue about games, more specifically BETA keys and draw an analogy to Wall Street — Seems legit right? :P  You aren’t trying to over-sensationalize this at all are you?

Let’s delve into your very shitty sophomoric argument here.  As far as I know no company gives away shares in their company.  If they would they would be very limited likely be 1 share per person, which means I could sell mine in clear conscience because someone wanted 2 shares.

Look you are just wrong, flat out wrong.  I get it you don’t like it when people sell BETA keys but that doesn’t by default make them unethical.  You seem to be buying into the OCCUPY WALL STREET nonsense and equating all profits as evil.  Good luck trying to make a living if you really think that.

@DarthDiggler:disqus  Okay, I’ve read through what you’ve said now and have come to the
conclusion that you are more of an ass than me, that you are more crazy
than me and that you must have fallen out of an extremely tall tree,
because you make zero sense.

In one post you say that Betas cost the company money, because keys need
to be generated. In another you say that betas don’t cost companies
money when one is looking at key distribution. How is key generation and
key distribution different? Both are resulting in a key that must be
consumed in order to gain access to a beta that will consume the
company’s paid for resources, right?

Also, betas do cost companies, sure. They also happen to cost companies
less than hiring a beefier crew of QA testing third parties. They
particularly cost companies when someone, like you who claims to have
gotten into EVERY beta they ever signed up for, because they
“contribute”, end up selling their key or extra key(s) off. In the
article’s example, if you get into the DotA 2 beta, you have an extra
key you can give away to someone. Armed with this knowledge I could go
out right now, somehow obtain a DotA2 key and spare and make my
contribution by using ‘my’ key, while I profit from selling the extra
key to someone that’s purely interested in playing but will make no
comparatively notable contribution.

Then again, in the post following that one where you say that you’ve gotten into EVERY beta, you go on to say, and I quote:

There are no ethical issues here though.  BETA keys are not plentiful
for a reason.  If one person takes it upon themselves to sell their beta
key they are giving someone else an opportunity to play a game early. 
Obviously that opportunity has value or there would be no sale.

If BETA keys were plentiful and everyone could get them, I would agree
with you, that would take some kind of real asshole to sell they key. 
But they are not they are a commodity and to some people they are gold. 
I see nothing unethical about collecting a profit for using your time
and expertise to create value for someone else.  That is how
marketplaces work inequities lead to opportunities.

So betas are plentiful if you’re awesome and make a contribution, but
not if… wait, when they NOT plentiful? When ARE they? I’ve lost track
of when they are and when they aren’t now…

And no, the second-hand market at its core doesn’t need to be hurting
developers nor publishers. Think about it. Let’s say I create the
“Lubbe’s Used Condo- er, Games” company. My company is an authorized and
direct distributor to the public of games published by Wankitivasion,
Electronic Farts and your friends’ shitty little development company
that nobody knows about yet that’s making some supposedly amazing games
that everyone is pirating and is thus causing them to go bankrupt.

I have in my store both sealed, brand new copies of the games that still
have that new-game smell when you sniff them after unwrapping the
plastic, as well as used games that have a facility for deactivating an
online association with a profile used to track unlocks for multiplayer
or singleplayer purposes. Y’know, kind of how the gamertag for Windows
Live on the 360 and I imagine whatever the system is that the PS3 uses,
and that “online passes” would facilitate without requiring that
publishers go via Microsoft for their profile system.

Now, when someone brings a used game to me, let’s say the new title
costs R500 off the shelf. I will give them R150 for their used copy if
it is in pristine condition. This is R150 off of their next game
purchase or, should they choose, simply money that goes into their
pocket that they walk out of the store with. I put the used copy of the
game up at R250.

As an authorized, offishul and totally awesome games company, part of my
agreement with Wankitivision, Electronic Farts and your friends’ shitty
little game dev company is that a portion of any and all used games
sales will go directly to you. Let’s say that in this case it’s R50 of
the R250 I’m selling it for. They make their R50, I make my R50.

How does this not hurt the games development companies? Because one copy
of their game has been removed from the active player base. Now, note
something *very* important here, because this is a very similar scenario
to the pirating situation;

When this person sells their game, they are giving up their ability to
play the game and are making back a small amount of money for their
original purchase. This is a *lost* player. This is someone that is no
longer benefiting from the game they have just sold; they can no longer
hop onto official servers, make use of stats services specific to that
game, no longer cost the company anything directly.

When someone else buys that used copy, it is no different from them
buying the new version beyond the fact that they are paying
significantly less for it. The developer/publisher is still making money
from the sale, just significantly less.

Why is this not a bad thing?

Because the publishers are still making money off their game at the end
of the day. R50 is by no means a small amount to get directly into your
pocket for a title you don’t need to have new packaging created for, a
new disc authored for, new manuals and add-in content printed for and a
new batch of shipped discs you have to pay for. In terms of digital
versus physical distribution, this is costing the publisher less than
the digital means of distributing the game to a ‘new’ player.

They might not have as great a turnover on the game, but then, why do they need such a high turnover?

Do you have any idea how much development of Call of Duty: Modern
Warfare 2 cost? Do you have any idea how much money they blew purely on
marketing the game, let alone distributing physical
copies of it?

For what? To increase their ePeen? Fans were probably still going to buy
it anyway even if there was only some basic advertising done for it.
The game sells itself once it’s in the hands of adoring fans getting
their friends to also buy it.

In all seriousness, fuck them. They are essentially justifying needing
to charge so much for their games not because the actual development
costs are that much, but because they need to cover exorbitant paychecks
for their highest ranking employees and to cover unnecessary launch
events and marketing campaigns.

Someday, your friends in the gaming industry might be doing exactly the same thing.

Mojang Games has made an absolute killing off of Minecraft without
needing to aggressively market it. They don’t have to deal with
operating costs for any servers besides those storing the game files.
The amount of money they have made so far, after taxes, grossly
outweighs how much money they need to worry about spending on
development.

They did something right and people are willing to pay 20 euros for
their game as a result. There’s no physical copy distribution for them
to worry about paying for, no aggressive marketing campaign nor
Hollywood-tier launch events to pay for.

They can, consequently, sell their game for as little as 20 euros (or 10
for those that bought it when it was still in beta) and still make a
killing off of it.

To be honest, having gone through what you’ve said, I could address your
other points and elaborate further, but your behaviour, let alone
argumentative logic, doesn’t exactly leave me inspired to do so.

 @d14963063dbc3218e988657bfba47045:disqus

I have come to the conclusion that you likely live in your mother’s basement and you are a bottom feeder in your community.  It sounds like you are into Photography, would you mind if I steal your photos?  No that wouldn’t be right — why?  Because it affects you and you are the most important thing in this world (according to you).

Go for it. The big difference is that if you’re simply using my photos for non-profit and non-commercial purposes, which by Creative Commons licensing would be permissable, you’re not hurting me. If anything, you’re increasing my popularity for me because if my photos are good and people begin looking for them, they will find out those photos belong to me and will know who to attribute the work to, thus increasing my exposure and potential for clients or customers in the future.

On the other hand, if you were to pass the photos off as your own (which would simply be hilarious since it could ruin your life in short order), then you’d be doing something wholly different to someone copying a game to play it without the intention of selling it for money, which causes your entire argumentative point to fall flat.

This is a very simple, logical concept that any reasonable person could understand.
Also, feel free to go through my albums on Facebook or Flickr and copy the files to your hard-drive – your doing so is in no way directly harming me, whether financially or otherwise, so I couldn’t be bothered.

Not right, again your pitiful English is really failing you here.  Now this article was all over the place and it was hard to stay on subject because of the poor writing.  So let me clarify my points to you since you are hell bent on trying to misrepresent me.

Comedy gold.

The process of launching, running and maintaining a BETA requires money, that is a loss to the Publishers, they aren’t selling the product they are just funneling funds to keep it going for feedback.  The process of generating distributing BETA keys cost very little.  So lets not mix up the COST of RUNNING A BETA with the COST of GENERATING and DISTRIBUTING BETA KEYS.

Yeahno.

Betas are never a profit center, as a matter of fact they are money losers.  It costs money to roll out betas, the key generation, the software downloads, the support website, the support phone lines, the support staff, the long developer hours working on 11th hour fixes.  Nothing about a beta is profitable at all, ever.  Someone selling a key doesn’t make a difference here.

Please! Think of those poor children working in Chinese Sweatshops generating beta keys day in and day out!

Developers working on patches? That’s their fucking job. Whether they were collaborating with a QA team hired by the publisher/developing company/companies or working with alpha or beta testers makes no difference – if they want their product to launch as close to bug free as possible by a set deadline, they have to do that work whether they’re doing it for a public beta or not.

I never said that BETAs did not.  You were trying to put words in my mouth, a very poor debate tactic BTW.

Strange, aren’t you doing exactly the same?

regaurding

Yes, I am going to go out of my way to demonstrate exactly how poor your English is. If you’re going to mock someone else’s understanding and command of a language, at least ensure your own understanding and command of that language is of a superior level of proficiency, lest you wish to look the fool for your words.

I have been in many BETAs.  The only one I didn’t make it into that I really wanted to was DUST514.  But CCP requires that you be a current EVE ONLINE subscriber to join the DUST514.  I know you must be rolling your eyes and thinking – what capitalist scum.  Did you ever consider that they wanted to roll out the BETA in a manner that would reward the long time EVE fans?

AHAHAHHAHAHAHA, oh wow, how precious. What was that about putting words in peoples’ mouths? I began playing EVE in February of 2005 and played it until relatively recently. In essence, I played for around 7 years.

And no, if you think it was purely about rewarding ‘long-time players’, you’ve got it very wrong. The game is going to have mechanics that are going to have a very direct and very tangible impact on gameplay in EVE and on its economy and politics, so it only makes sense to only have long-term EVE players beta testing it during its closed phase so they can get the most reliable information from people that may actually have a clue with regards to balance issues and inter-game interaction.

What I was saying since you can’t seem to comprehend English is BETA keys are a commodity, they aren’t all that plentify, rare things intrinsically have value.

Oh lawd, my sides XD

This isn’t my doing this is HUMAN NATURE.  The reason you have people SELLING BETA keys is because you have people BUYING BETA keys.

You do realise you’re preaching to the choir, right? I think I was the first person in this thread to blame the buyers, not the sellers.

It is yours a code to gain access to something.  The code has no software in it, it gives you access to software.  Some people are willing to pay for that access, and in that case you will always have someone willing to sell it.  Even if you don’t like it that doesn’t mean it’s unethical.

Right. And because of this we see situations such as Diablo 3 where, by either preordering the game on the Battle.net site or by utilizing the annual pass system, you automatically gained access to the beta. This came at a premium cost as in neither case were you getting the luxury for free; you were paying more for your total WoW game time combined with a retail copy of the game in most countries when going for the annual pass, or paying far more for a digital-only version of the game, again vs buying it as a physical retail copy.

Also because of this, we may see in future that games companies are more open as to their methods of entry into betas, awarding limited free beta keys while offering, at some point beyond their initial introduction of these free beta keys, a ‘pay to play’ facility. This may or may not come with a copy of the game included in the cost.

Mojang Games did that for Minecraft, Blizzard/Activision did that for Diablo3, I think it was done for Gears of War 3. I’m certain it’s already being done by many games publishers.

What I was trying to say is if BETA keys WERE (as in theortical) plentiful it would be an asshole move to sell them.

Masterful command of the English language there, mate. Also, your argument at this point makes an inverse amount of sense – congratulations, I have never seen someone destroy their own arguments with such aptitude.

You can keep saying that but it’s not true.  See me last post with article links that prove the game industry isn’t doing all that great.  How many more developers do you want to see close their doors before you will get it through your thick skull that all is not well in this industry?  Piracy is a piece of the missing profits, used games is the other.

Please note the “at its core does not have to be hurting“. Just because publishers have not engaged used-games retailers to arrange an authorized means of redistributing games does not mean it could not be done.

If anything, you’re the one with the thick skull, but I am still enjoying this as belittling idiots online gets me hard.

I can quite effectively type at 300kpm with one hand, just by the way.

I have heard your example before, yada yada this guy isn’t using the game any more so it doesn’t cost the publisher money.  Hogwash…*snip*

Oh the horror! People are buying games for less than the price that publishers and retail channels want to sell them for! Their poor, poor high-ranking employees can’t afford to buy that luxury yacht with their Christmas bonus at the end of the next fiscal year! They had to close the doors of one of their developers because the games coming out of them were so shit that nobody wanted to buy them!

Publishers lay money from previous successes on the line when testing a new IP or attempting to milk an existing IP further. They utilize funds they may get from investors and those wanting to license their goods for display within the games. Some games even utilize ad systems in-game to display adverts to their players (Deus Ex: Human Revolution, among others).

They also lay down a lot of money on wholly unnecessary marketing campaigns. I cannot think of a single game that has been developed and launched by a high profile company in the past 3 years that has caused them so great a financial loss that they were forced to cut assets as a result.

Your article links? They’re referring to sales. Mass Effect saw 7 million sold copies during the first few weeks, just to pull a random example (that you’re of course going to hold up as the ONLY game EVAHR that I would think of mentioning).

7mil * 45 euro == $315,000,000

[SarcasticWonka]Please, tell me more about how poor your sales figures and resulting profits were[/SarcasticWonka]

Initial sales of games aren’t going down because of piracy, they’re going down because people are getting tired of being ripped off for sub-standard games and are opting to wait for the games to drop to a more reasonable price level. People are running out of money to spend on Call of Duty: Fifty FuckingFourdern Warfare.

This is not a reflection of pirates directly ‘stealing’ profits from publishers, let alone of publishers having a financial loss on their fiscal readings.

Then again, since you’re a prodigy in the world of economics, you of course knew this already.

Publishers weren’t expected to do Industrial Light and Sound quality cinemas.

The company you’re looking for is ‘Industrial Light and Magic’, while the word you’re looking for is ‘cinematics’.

Publishers weren’t expected to have full voice over
Judging by your expectations of games, if I had to guess, I’d say you’re no older than 18.
Stay a while, and listen!

The poly count was a fraction of what it is today.

You know, at this point you’re demonstrating your complete and utter lack of knowledge surrounding games development…

Do you know what normal maps are? How they’re created? Do you know what lightmaps are? Do you know what ‘LOD’ is?

Did you know that the original sprites created for Diablo in Diablo 1 were drawn from orthographic photos taken of a soft model of Diablo that was posed? That the models for all Quake 3′s characters and world geometry were originally insanely high detail items? That despite how low-poly the model for the character in Crysis 2 really is, the version that the original textures and maps were derived from measured in the millions of polygons?

Did you know that the only reason games cinematics took so long to improve in their true quality was because of hardware constraints, not unlike the limitations imposed on games developers by current average gamer hardware? You wouldn’t download a graphics card.

You don’t seem to know jack shit about these things you’re trying to talk about right now.

Your constant demonization of companies seeking profits is laughable.  Profits provide job security, job security provides for wealth, wealth provides for overall security.  There is nothing inheritly wrong with  trying to make money especially when you are dealing with things that have such high costs.

You must not be South African. I’ll let you guess what I’m judging this assumption on.

Now you are comparing a small PC dev with console gaming and it’s a completely different landscape.

Hi, Minecraft on XBLA would like to have a chat with you.

Also you forget one thing, just because that system works well for MineCraft doesn’t mean it will carry over into everything.

No, I think you’re missing the point; they utilized ingenuity and it made them successful. Fifty titles based off the exact same game created a decade ago does not automatically guarantee you will be successful. Major publishers are simply too lazy and comfortable with the massive profits they are already making off of their existing franchises.

That game grew very organically, had he had to deal with spikes it would have been much harder to manage and support.  He doesn’t have a huge support staff like EA, so he was in no position to market the game heavily.

I don’t think you quite understand how digital media distribution works.

He doesn’t need to worry about people saturating his lone 100mbps fiber connection at home, he outsources the data distribution to hosting companies that can handle it.

If, when and where those companies’ resources become saturated, or near saturation, they contact him and say “yo Holmes, your shiz be about to cap yo, watchoowannado?”. Using the money he just received from people, you know, buying the game they’re trying to download, he tells them to increase the upstream capacity to meet demand and foots the bill that comes with it. Where the company somehow runs out of hosting resources, he utilizes an alternative and lists it as a download mirror.

Tada! Content Delivery Networks 101

Well I have pretty much refuted you line by line.

You have done no such thing, and I think you’ll find countless people would agree on this point.

Feel free to elaborate, I am confident you are wrong.  I have provided well thought out arguments where you are relying on putting words in my mouth and casting your feelings as logic.

You have no idea how wrong you are on this… Unfortunately, your apparent stupidity also won’t allow you to realise this.

 Please click on my picture, then click on the conveniently placed facebook link. I sincerely hope I’m not Dean…

Anyway, on to your response, since you’ve taken the time to reply to me;

You are braindead. Games publishers have no avenues of making money off of their IP besides games and DLC? Honestly? Really, seriously, in all honesty, that is what you believe? I wasn’t aware that when a publisher owns license to do with IP what they want, that they are completely incapable of producing, you know merchandise related to their game. Or having film adaptations made of their games. Of creating artbooks for their games. Of creating comics for their games.

No, I am not holding up ONE company. I am holding up TWO companies. I am also not holding up ONE game, I am holding up COUNTLESS incredibly successful games. The entire Fallout franchise. The entire Need for Speed franchise. The Harry Potter franchise. The Sims. Devil May Cry. Tekken. Street Fighter. Forza. Gears of War. Diablo. Fatal Frame. Mario. Megaman. Pokemon. Half-Life…. The list goes on and on.

I’m going to shed all pretense of being at all civil and just come out with it; so far you’re sounding incredibly retarded. You’re trying to create holes in people’s arguments where they don’t exist, you’re simply willing them into existence and failing in the process.

As for your ‘Occupy Wallstreet’ remark, I find the whole thing pretty damned retarded. I couldn’t be arsed to care what their problem is about nor what they’re saying, because that’s their issue, not mine. If it affects me in some kind of way, right now I’m not inclined to care when looking at hippies trying to string two coherent sentences together while blazed.

Here is my evidence that refutes your retard “Well COD is doing well that means the entire game industry is just awesome sauce, derp.”…

Where did I say it’s doing well? I said that the publishers were being idiots to spend so much on marketing campaigns for the game, along with development, and then to fucking cry about it when they’re having ‘money stolen from them’ by the big bad evil pirates.

Where in the fuck are you getting these crazy insinuations of yours from?

Your concept of what pirates are and what they do is incredibly biased and stereotypical.

I played some Dungeon Siege 3 after having bought DS1 and 2 having liked both of those. I would never, even if paid, buy Dungeon Siege 3. It’s a shit game from the moment you run it. I so far own Morrowind, after pirating it first. I own Oblivion, after pirating it first I own Fallout 3, after pirating it first.

I own Quake3, after pirating it first. I own Counter-Strike: Source along with HL2, and Ep1+2 along with TF2, after pirating all of them first. You want my Quake 3 key?

T3R3-CAJG-SAL2-2SD2

Go try it. I got banned at some point on Mweb’s servers because someone at a LAN ‘stole’ my key and hacked online with it.

I bought Minecraft after pirating it. I bought World of Warcraft and all its current expansions after pirating those and playing them on ‘private’ servers.

Your mythical ‘pirate with a conscience that doesn’t exist’ does actually exist; you’re simply too much of a self-absorbed, righteous cunt to realise it. I’m allowed to say that on the site, right guys? Site’s got an M+ rating et al? I’ll edit it if not.

A pirate actually has excellent potential to do good in the gaming industry. If they think a game is incredibly shit they will voice their opinion about it in many cases, unless they simply discard it and never play it (because, after all, if a game is shit then it’s shit, no amount of money that you pay for it is going to make it any less shit, so you’re not inclined to pay for it). On the other hand, if a game is incredibly good, they may be inclined to buy it and will almost certainly be telling others that the game is actually quite good. Those people may in turn either pirate the game (as they might have done at some point anyway, because you cannot believe with absolute certainty that a pirate will not pirate a game just because they can, after all) or will go on a trusted opinion and simply buy the game.

They may also go voice their opinion regarding the game, whether positive or negative, on forums, on gaming news/review sites, on sites like Metacritic.

They do no direct harm in pirating a game unless they disseminate that pirated copy. Of course, this means there’s an effective pyramid of ‘guilt’ in the form of your scene folk cracking copy protection -> initial newsgroup seeds -> initial distribution chain -> re-distributors of the pirated versions.

You’re not stealing jack shit if it doesn’t exist in a physical form. You, by definition, cannot steal what cannot be tangibly proven to exist. If someone were to remove my physical copies of Bethesda games from my posession, they will have stolen the physical media. Now my games are ‘stolen’. On the other hand, if someone on LAN happens to copy my game’s installed files and then uses a no-DVD crack, does that mean they stole ‘my’ game? No, I didn’t lose my physical media. Did they steal the copyright owner’s game? No, they made a copy of the files that they might never actually use to full enjoyment for a variety of reasons, one of which could be that the game ends up being something they don’t like at all and thus simply delete, another being that the crack is buggy as shit rendering the game unplayable, another being that there are issues with the way in which they copied it rendering it unable to run – the list goes on.

That you consider yourself a ‘perfectly reasonable’ person is quite simply laughable. You’re one of the best crack-addict impersonators I’ve ever encountered on the internet so far, and I sincerely hope for your sake that you’re merely trolling at this point.

your command of the English language is a little lacking

It don’t matter

the games title

tattooed

forhead

Oh you. Also, spellchecker motherfucker, can you use it?

And you are entitled to entertainment if you are expected to pay for it. A games developer or publisher is NOT entitled to your money purely because they created or published a game. That’s like saying that I am entitled to money for taking a shit, because, after all, I created that shit and so I demand money for it!

And no, I wasn’t talking about beta keys specifically, I was talking about competitions for which there is zero financial commitment involved and of which the prize has a monetary worth to those who may win it, and people who enter such a competition with the express intention of selling their winnings for monetary gain, undermining those that are entering the competition with the intention of actually using their winnings; in a sense, this compares to the concept of the article where beta keys are being given in pairs of two with the hope that the second key would be given away for free to a friend or family member, instead of profiting from getting two where you are essentially guaranteed to at least get one for yourself and one for someone else (or for sale), assuming you don’t sell both.

I’d have hoped that your own command of the English language would be adequate, allowing you to understand this very basic reference.

Downloading games isn’t illegal these days, just by the way. I downloaded Diablo 3 last night – better get on the horn to Activision, I’m committing an illegal act here, yo!

Anyway, get over yourself. You are not some kind of knight of righteousness, you are a deranged lunatic that thinks he has some kind of saintly principles by which he lives and that everyone should live by the exact same principles, or they weren’t raised properly.

Your comparison is laughable at best. Can’t put the toothpaste back in the tube? So you’re saying that a pirate cannot elect to buy a game they have already pirated? That they will, under absolutely no circumstances, be inclined to buy it?

I like how you keep comparing tangible, physical objects to immaterial objects, though. Please, keep it up, I’m certain you’re providing laughs for many.

 So, I don’t really know why I came back to say this, because it’s actually pointless but here goes:

@d14963063dbc3218e988657bfba47045:disqus – if you weren’t so obsessed with having to try and refute points, point by point, you would actually realise what you’re saying with the holes that you’re leaving in your argument(s). Not only that, but you’re missing the actual point of the article.

Now, @DarthDiggler:disqus, you’ve noted that you own the beta key.

“Selling stuff (that you have ownership of) is not wrong.”

That is in relation to selling beta keys which I say is unethical and you say isn’t, because you own it.

One then needs to ask: what does that key do?

It unlocks a game, or gives access to a game. Much like a CD gives access to a game. (Not comparing CDs vs keys, here though, just explaining.)

“It is yours a code to gain access to something.  The code has no software in it, it gives you access to software.  Some people are willing to pay for that access, and in that case you will always have someone willing to sell it.”

Right, so we agree that it gives access to something. That’s good.

Therefore, can it not be said that to sell the beta key you sell it as “the game”, which is Dota 2 — for example. You cannot sell a beta key as “a rubber duck”, nor can you sell a beta key as mere numbers and letters as no-one will know what to do with that beta key. It is therefore known that the key is actually the means to a game.

I believe that I can make many links to the secondhand market and discs right here, but I won’t. I’ll let you think about that. (Here’s a hint: the CD isn’t the game but what is on the CD is. The beta key isn’t the game but what it unlocks is. It’s the means to the game.)

Now, following that, while you might own numbers and letters, you don’t own what it unlocks. That’s Valve’s. If you sell it as numbers and letters that will be fine – because it could potentially unlock anything. If you still it on eBay to a 86-year old antics collector, they won’t know what it is — therefore it isn’t easily know what it is or what it’s for. You aren’t selling it like that though, you’re selling it like it’s a game. A game which belongs to Valve (Immaterial Property, etc.), as we’ve discussed so violently above in all of the other comments.

Therefore, if you think about it, if you sell Dota 2 beta keys you could be seen as a pseudo-retailer, of some sort. And what do we know about retailers?

1. They hold the discs which they have in stock. The content on the disc is not their property.
2. They pay the publishers royalties on the sales they make.

The mandate is that games are given out for sales whereas beta keys are given out for use. What else could one do with a beta key except for use it?

From this we can see that when a sale is the mandate, royalties are paid to the publisher. They make money on their intellectual property, etc. Once the disc is purchased it no longer becomes stock of the publisher but of the consumer — you and I. We don’t own the content though, but we have ownership of the property which is tangible.

Following that, the mandate for a beta keys is use. It isn’t intended to be sold, it is intended to be used to play games. There is not much else one can do with a beta key except for use it as its sole purpose is to unlock something.

(With a CD you can have it as a coaster for a cup, hang it from your rear-view mirror, check your hair, frisbee, etc.You can do more – put it that way.)

So, now my argument is that you are selling something which unlocks a game which is not yours but Valve’s. You are selling the beta key which unlocks immaterial property. The intention of that key is to )1) be used and 2) unlock something very specific and detailed. With Dota 2 beta keys one can add a third intention of sharing.

That’s the link between the retailer and the person selling: there’s a mandate from the publisher which needs to be fulfilled: sale and use. Sale has royalties, use enjoyment. I keep saying this, I know. It’s important.

When you sell the free and meant-to-be-shared beta key, do you pay royalties to the publisher? Are you actually going out of your mandate, which is use, by selling it? Yep, you are. When you sell it, you don’t even pay the company royalties for that sale — instead, you just keep it. And you incurred no cost. Because you’re breaching your mandate as well as not paying royalties for that it can be seen as undue enrichment. Of course the claim is too small for litigation, but that doesn’t change what it is. Making money at someone else’s expense is undue enrichment — and the beta is an expense to Valve.

Why should you make money off something they want used and shared? Not sold.

That, I believe, is seen as unethical. Undue enrichment can be seen as immoral and unethical — especially if pursued continuously. If Valve wanted it sold, they have a 100 times better platform than you to sell it on, so they would.

As @TheoLubbe:disqus and I discussed above, there will be someone to buy. But just because they are buying, it doesn’t make it right. There’s a black market for kidneys, it doesn’t make it right.

Therefore, “you will always have someone willing to sell it.  Even if you don’t like it that doesn’t mean it’s unethical” is wrong. It is unethical, and very wrong.

Reasons for buying is psychological. This can be many reasons, and the fact that sellers play on these psychological problems is immoral too. Highly questionable and wrong.

This can now also be attributed to other betas:

- A beta key received via pre-order:

This is a ‘free’ bonus. Selling this can be frowned upon merely because the publisher wants you to try it while you wait for it to be released properly. Once again, a mandate of use (same as above). If you do not wish to try it, why not give it to someone else, for free, to try. This might lead to them buying the product as well? You yourself advocate people need to buy more games as figures are dropping, so why not share it and try help that extra sale? If you sell it to someone to use, they will essentially be paying X amount for the game plus Y for the beta key, therefore X + Y for which should only cost X. He was punished for trying it first.

He can now sell his beta key right? At the end of the cycle someone is screwed where they had to pay extra because you were selfish enough to say you wanted money for yours because you wanted a cheaper game. No unethical, just plain stupid, selfish and greedy. Other things I wouldn’t want to be.

FYI: we’re doing Diablo 3 guest pass give-aways. Every key we’ve used so far has been donated by someone different. So, just so you know, people do want to share things as they were intended. They do want more people playing games. It’s the unethical, selfish, immoral and greedy people who try to make money off free things which are intended to be shared.

- A beta key won through a competition / sign-up:

If you believe that you deserve to sell a beta key for your time and effort because you “checked your email and kept up to date” then you are a pig. I’m sorry to say that but it’s true.

Beta keys handed out via these mediums are once again mandates of use.

If you signed up, kept up to date and followed all of this purely to sell the beta key — you’re definitely unethical. All the time spent getting the key is /your/ fault, directly. If you never wanted to play the game, why would you sign up for a key? Why would you sign up for a key with the intention to sell it to someone who wants it? Now how could you ever possibly claim: if there’s a market it can be sold. There wouldn’t be a market if you weren’t forcing the market by snatching it up first then selling it to those who couldn’t get there in time? If you were a proper person, like Theo admits to, who sits out of competitions and give aways which they aren’t interested in, then the follow gamers who are could possibly benefit. They would get the key and you won’t be needed in the whole equation. It’s highly unethical to take from people and sell back. That’s also horribly unfair to be honest. Just stay away from that beta and let the others get it because they want it.

Now, here’s the thing. If you really, really wanted that beta key and you got the last one, whereas someone else also really, really wanted it but just missed it, and they offered to buy it from you — that would be alright. Because 1) you don’t have the game already, 2) you aren’t selling as a profit, 3) you’re selling as compensation for not being able to play. Therefore, if you 1) have the game, 2) original intention was to sell without ever playing, you’re a unethical pig. It’s different, evidently so.

So that’s out the way. You sort of refuted your own points as you went along. I hope you know that. Next time try focus on the important parts of an argument and don’t try to “school the whole thing” because you think you’re overly smart. You will land up making mistakes, despite how smart you could be. You made makes and your argument came across as horribly flawed.

This comment touches on the integral points of the article and the discussion. The article was never intended to say it has a worse effect to developers (read: developers + publishers). It read to say it harms both developers (albeit small) and the community, which is two fold. As I said, harming the community is unforgivable.

Hell, it’s even in the title: “You Bitch At Piracy, But What About Those Who Sell Beta Keys”

Developers bitch at pirates taking money, you bitch at pirates hurting your community because you lose out indirectly from their actions which you don’t support. So we are not talking about developer losing money. So, I’m saying, rather bitch at those who directly hurt the community by making more of the community participate in unethical practices, namely having to buy free beta keys. It’s aimed at that. Naturally developers have some damage, but not as intense as piracy (obvious).

Lastly, you said “What I was trying to say is if BETA keys WERE (as in theortical) plentiful it would be an asshole move to sell them.”

Dota 2 beta: get a key, get one for your friend. It’s free, share it with your friend! They said. Now, Dota 2, http://www.vg247.com/2012/05/11/dota-2-beta-becoming-more-popular-than-skyrim-counter-strike-on-steam/

It’s HUGELY popular. It’s a fully replayable game for many hours and millions play it. It’s a beta, which as you said, is plentiful.

I guess people selling FREE & SHARABLE Dota 2 keys (as I stated in the article) is an asshole move, and probably unethical too — right?